Wednesday, April 27, 2011
Chapters 7-9 (Life with Jody)
The first half of the book is over--how does Janie's life seem to you now? I am also curious about what you think of her relationship with her husband--Hurston's sympathies (and mine) lie with Janie, but I don't think Hurston sugarcoats the fact that Janie is not the perfect wife for Joe Starks, either. Also--how's the language going? Still difficult? And do you like the book so far? Connections to other stuff we've read? Anything else?
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Coco said...
ReplyDeleteCHAPTERS 7-9
In these chapters, I was impressed by the profound meanings and emotions that Hurston laid over events that weren't ordinary, but certainly were not particularly unique. Janie and Jody's fight seemed to be a breaking point, but it was simply a fight on the surface. However, Hurston allows the reader to experience how deeply Janie's words cut Jody, as she "robbed him of his illusion of irresistible maleness", and this gives us perspective into just how important this fight was as the culmination of the troubled emotions that Janie had been experiencing for years, and her eventual inability to prevent them from being, in a somewhat unintentionally vicious way, voiced. Hurston's description of Jody's reaction also seems to be used as an example for a larger view of masculinity, the loss of which is so terrible because the illusion persists, and when this illusion is broken, the "maleness that all men cherish" is gone. Hurston really pushes this description of Jody's disillusionment at Janie's hands to represent a pointedly painful and disheartening experience, that delves much deeper than a fight.
April 27, 2011 4:47 PM
Tracey Faber said...
CHAPTERS 7-9
I was struck by how so much time has passed, 17 years, and how the characters (apart from Janie's descriptions of the dying, dissolving Jody) really don't seem to have changed much. And even though he is becoming more violent and critical of her, their relationship appears the same. They still don't know each other, and as the reader, we don't know much about either of them, how they have developed as people over the course of their time in Eatonville. Even through Janie, we see them very much from the outside (or at least it feels that way to me). I think that might change after Jody's death because Janie acknowledges how little he knows her, " You done lived wid me for twenty years and you don't half know me atall" (82). Then we see more of her thoughts at the funeral with,"Darkness. Deep hole. Dissolution. Eternity. Weeping and wailing outside. Inside the expensive black folds were resurrection and life" (84).
April 27, 2011 5:02 PM
Here's one from Olga. Sorry I didn't get the 7-9 post up in time.
ReplyDeleteOlga said...
Chapters 7-9
I had the same reaction as Tracey when it came to how long Janie and Jody were together before he died. The way their relationship was described, it was the same thing day-in and day-out with Jody criticizing Janie and Janie going to her happy place in her mind. Janie also reacted with surprise when she noticed that Jody had changed into an old, sick man because they stopped looking at each other. Although as Janie said and Tracey restated, Jody never really knew Janey. This is an example of how success and money don't bring happiness because Jody, the mayor, the landlord, and the rich man, died afraid, bitter, and emotionally alone despite the fact that his wife, a woman that he could have treated right, was next to him.
April 27, 2011 6:24 PM
Because of all the fighting, both of them get uglier and older. It reached to the point where Janie couldn't handle it anymore. As she is trying to keep expressing her opinons, she is again let down. Jody won't even let her play chess. Janie now realizes that all Jody cares about is himself and his own appearance to other people. I am glad Jody died becaue he didn't deserve to live anymore and just because he has money and power doesn't mean he gets control of everything and he doesn't know what true love is.
ReplyDeleteI also thought that time seemed to move very quickly, and it seemed strange that Janie would stay in such a bad relationship with Jody for so long. The death scene with Jody was particularly affecting; it was almost like she killed him with her words, but they had to be said - she's so honest, and that's what I like so much about her character. This trait also manifests itself at the end of chapter nine, when she can't help saying how free she feels now that Jody is dead. I'm continuing to love Hurston's writing; I particularly enjoyed one of the more famous lines from the book: "Death, that strange being with the huge square toes who lived way in the West." It is such a vivid image, and so strangely fitting, but I don't quite know why.
ReplyDelete- Catherine Marris
Coco's account of J&J's fight (yes, Laina, there are too many J's) and the way Hurston brings out the deeper hurts is right on. I also like Olga's reminder that Janie used to go off to "her happy place in her mind" where she wasn't even in her body anymore, but was looking down on herself as if from someplace else. And yes, how quickly time moves in this book!
ReplyDeleteAfter reading these chapters I felt bad for Janie, but I was also upset at her for saying how she didn't like the way her Grandmother raised her. Although her Grandmother forced her into her first marriage she only did so in order to ensure that Janie was in a secure situation. Her Grandmother was probably the only reason that she made it through her childhood. As for the language I think it has gotten easier, because it they use a lot of the same words, and eventually you are able to read them instead of having to sound them out. I look forward to the second half of the novel.
ReplyDeleteHenry Lucey
The sudden time changes from the start of the town to like 20 years over kind of reminds me of Our Antonia and how time changed from the rural/urban areas. I do think its kind of exaggerrated how "ugly" they look. They are only 40 or something and the friends/people they grew up with is also getting older which makes their depleting state a lot less evident(as it is happoening to everyone)
ReplyDeleteAndrew
I was also quite surprised by how quickly the time flew by, and how much the characters aged and grew uglier. I was also surprised that Janie stook with Jody for so long, and that she never left him. It was obvious that she was unhappy in her marriage, and her frustrations just kept on growing. At the very beginning of the book, the description of Janie (by the other people in the town) made her seem like a strong sort of rebel to me which is why I thought that she would have the strength and courage to leave Jody at some point. I was surprised and disappointed that she never did.
ReplyDelete-Sydney
Call me crazy, but shouldn't Janie have gotten pregnant and/or had a kid by this point in the story? She was married to Joe for 20 years for pete's sake so if this doesn't get explained later then I'll be pretty confused.
ReplyDeleteOn a separate note I definitely sympathize with Janie and it seems pretty clear cut to me that the reader should too. Joe proves himself to be misogynist and Janie is clearly the most intelligent character in the story so far.
Like Ariel, I am also surprised by the lack of children in this story. It's seems like this community has no kids in it at all and I was also wondering how Janie and Joe did not produce any offspring in their 20 something ears together.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I am beginning to see Janie's hair as a symbol of her womanhood. She wears it long until Joe forces her to cover it with rags, suppressing her womanhood. It is restored later when she dies after she burns all the rags and lets her hair hang down once more.
I had the same thought as Ariel. Why no kids? It is a weakness of the book, really.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I would consider the absence of kids as a weakness of the book, rather I see it as a way to put more focus on Janie as an adult among peers rather than both an adult as well as a mother. By leaving out children, the reader is better able to see Janie acting on behalf of her interests as opposed to balancing her and her kids' interests.
ReplyDelete-Ben Hyman
That's a helpful way to look at it, Ben. Hurston left out the issue of children completely, so as not to lose focus on her main interest, Janie's coming into herself, finding her voice and her independence. But at the same time, children are a HUGE factor in women's lives, and just leaving them out without, as Ariel says, any explanation, still seems like a weakness to me.
ReplyDeleteI like it that Ariel says Janie is the most intelligent character in the book. Intelligent in some ways--but what about the fact that she can't do the math when she makes mistakes in the store, doing the math and so on? It seems to me that if you try to see it through Joe's eyes, he has some legit grievances. He's thinking, I take this woman from a miserable life in the middle of the woods and set her up as the most prominent woman in town, and she complains?
Janie seemed to be having a hard life because Joe had suppressed her voice (and in the process supressed her freedom and identity) However, Janie was the wife of the mayor, not a housekeeper unlike her grandmother. She should have been a little grateful for that, rather than hating her grandmother for forcing her into marriage. I would not have put up with Joe's insults, and I think she did the right thing standing up for herself (she found her voice, and with it came her freedom and identity) Her relationship with her husband was tense because of his domineering nature, and she was justified in standing up for herself. However, like Mr. Colburn mentioned, Janie was not the perfect wife. She kept ruining stuff for Joe, like the store calculations. And after he had worked hard as a mayor, which is no easy job, in order to bring her prestige as the mayor's wife, she pouts the whole day and does not contribute as much to the family as he did. (And it was great that she stood up for herself at Joe's deathbed, but she was a little callous imo for continuing to list grudges while he is dying) Janie was not the perfect life, and Joe was not a perfect husband, so I would just say that what's done had been done and we should move on.
ReplyDeleteBtw, why is everyone trying to scrutinize about tiny plot holes? Have you ever thought that Hurston had left out children for convenience? If Janie had children, then she would not be able to continue on to the next chapter as easily (if Janie had children, she can't flirt around with Tea Cake, she can't be free to do whatever she wanted, etc.)
Writers generally don't try to anticipate every single question future high school students are going to pose about their books; they just write the book and publish it. While they are writing the book, writers don't ask themselves, "What if a high school student ask about why this vampire in my book doesn't have a cat, even though most American have cats? I should probably stick a cat into my book so that they won't think my book is weak."
xD Just sayin, I mean when I write a story I don't pre-anticipate possible issues and write a book based around those issues. We should enjoy this book for what it is, and not what it is not! :)
This part is starting to get pretty graphic. I don't really like to hear about how he beats janie but I guess that s just what he has turned into. The language is still pretty hard to decode but getting easier. I am really looking forward to see how Janie progresses in her life and if she decides to have a relationship with another man in the town. I don't think that she will stay in the town too much longer because of the store and her history. Im not sure about her future but i think it will be interesting.
ReplyDeletePoor Janie, I keep thinking, but also poor Jody. Janie was swept off her feet by this clean, ambitious man, and now she's paying the price. Jody, on the other hand, fell in love with this beautiful girl, whom he never expected anything from, and he got a rebel, a freethinker (according to him), who hates the submissiveness which she is forced to assume. Naturally, Janie is considered the more sympathetic of the two, but Jody was still trying to keep the peace in his own way. I love the description of how he ages, with the little bags hanging everywhere.
ReplyDeleteI feel bad for Jody, of course, since he was deathly ill. However, I have stronger feelings about Janie and precisely about how Jody was mean and horrible to her. I bet Janie feels like he got what he deserved. I was so happy and almost proud when she told him off; she finally broke free. She also pretended to be sad, just for a bit (the funeral,...) and she didn't let anyone influence her opinion. She doesn't feel guilty about being happy about her new independence.
ReplyDeleteCHAPTERS 10-13
ReplyDeleteThese chapters seem much more eventful, and kind of releasing for Janie. For so long, she had been stifled by Jody, and the dominant voices in the last couple of chapters before this seemed to be the men talking outside the store. The book was focused more around the feeling of the town and the slow injustices of Janie's married life. It did not include much of Janie's own expression- we got little about her own feelings and experiences, and even less of her dialogue. In these chapters, however, Janie is suddenly once again taking the center position in the novel. She is no longer Mrs. Starks, the mayor's wife. It seems that in her romance with Tea Cake, Janie is able to return to her younger state of hopefulness and faith in the love she saw among the bees and the flowers of the pear tree. It's like she was somewhat hidden all along, during her marriage to Jody, and now she has come forward again, after just enough time for us to forget that she had, in fact, been repressed in her expression and that she is truly a much more free, open, and expressive person.
CHAPTERS 10-13
ReplyDeleteI agree that the point of view expressed how Janie was oppressed by her marriage, and that now she has returned from that bland hiatus and back into her real self, the jovial and expectant one of her youth. However, as idyllic as their relationship seems, it is odd how he leaves her all day and night and spends almost all her money. His reason for it, that he didn't think she would want to be with him if she saw that he was with "commoners", seemed irrelevant and insufficient. Still, he really does appear to love her. This is all very interesting plot-wise because they have gone from rural town to the city, and in such a new place all the characters can be new as well, and take on new forms.
I enjoyed Janies series of drilling complaints at Jody. She was breaking him down mentally then just as he had done to her for the last seventeen years. She was relentless and broke him down till he died. Even better was her actions afterwards as she starched and ironed her face, forming into just what people wanted to see.
ReplyDeleteAs I said before, I really enjoy this part of the story because we, as the readers see Janie thrive in her freedom after Jody's death. It is a relief to see her interactions in a non-abusive environment (Tea Cake). Janie's voice begins to come out more, representing her growing comfort and moving on to a new stage in her life.
ReplyDeleteThis section of the book starts showing Jody become more and more like Janie's previous husband. He insults her and tries to control her and shape her into the person that he wants her to be. There is even some recurring symbolism of the mule in a previous chapter, which in both cases represent Janie and her husband at the time's deteriorating relationship.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Janie and Jody were not right for each other (obviously). It was unfortunate for Janie, because Jody turned out to be a abusive, insecure man. However, I believe that Hurston was also trying to show that a free spirit can sometimes get people into trouble, but I also believe that Janie will continue to have this free spirit throughout the story.
ReplyDeleteLike Ariel and Mr. Colburn I was surprised to read along and notice that Jody has no kids. 20 years of marriage and no kids? I guess that Some people just don't want to have children.
ReplyDelete*Janie
ReplyDeleteCall me a feminist or biased, but I loved reading this section - it was analogous to freeing an abused protagonist from an evil villain. I can't help but see Jody as the evil sexist man who made Janie's life miserable until his death - the forbidden sick chamber seemed a little selfish on Jody's part. I'm a little surprised that Janie hasn't tried to reach out to the women in the community - to my understanding many of them were jealous of Janie's high social standing, but I'm sure she could have invited them over for tea or something. That's beside the point - what's more interesting is the potential cause of Jody's death: Janie's first serious talk with him. Did Hurston intend it to seem non-coincidental?
ReplyDeleteAs for the writing, it's gotten much easier to understand.
Reading these chapters I began to think about why Hurston picked the title 'Their Eyes Were Watching God.' In these chapters it seems as though Jody was a god-like figure in the town. Everyone is envious of him and thinks what he does is noble and right. He was the man who played such a key role in forming the town, and the people don't forget it, they appoint him Mayor (which somehow he is for years and years), certainly a god-like position. The encounter with Tony's wife reinforces this idea. She puts herself in his hands (or at least she says she is), giving him the power to give or take, which is certainly associated with god-like tendencies. Jody is also a charitable character when he buys the mule just so that it can finally relax. This is also a god-like attribute. The title then suggests that everyone was watching Jody, looking up to him for judgement and leadership. But if this is truly what Hurston intended by the title, then I am very interested to see where the book goes next now that Jody is dead.
ReplyDelete-Matt Goroff
These chapters were a little bit easier to read and I'm starting to get used to the dialogue. I still am not sure whether Jody ever really loved Janie or if she was just an object of his control. I have yet to see what role God plays in the novel but maybe that will become more apparent in the coming chapters after the death of Jody.
ReplyDeleteI really started to feel a lot of sypathy for Janie in these chapters. When Jody died I felt better for her like she could really begin to follor her dreams and be free of him. I like her power of not being afraid to show she isnt sad. The reading was easier but Im pretty eager to see what Janies life consists of next.
ReplyDeleteJody really let the power and money and his success go to his head.It reminds me of Janie's last husband and the fact that he was nice and kind to her at the beginning but then over time he treats her awful. The difference with this husband is that Janie does not give in, and not only does he put her down emotionally, but he targets her thoughts on herself physically making her powerless till he dies, then she takes the upper hand.
ReplyDeleteChapters 5-9: Jody seemed to me very akin to the "head vulture": he was very preoccupied with his own importance that he would no nothing without the proper respects and formalities that his station called for. It was frustrating to see Janie parcel off more and more parts of herself as Jody became more demeaning and sexist in his attitude towards her.
ReplyDeleteI love the metaphors that Hurston uses. One of my favorites is "Death, that strange being with the huge square toes who lived way in the West."
I love how Janie finally tells Jody what she is thinking, even if it is on his death bed. This shows so much power and courage. I love that she doesn't hold back. It's insane. Way to go, janie
ReplyDeleteFirst off this section does move at a speed much faster than the other chapters. This changes the feel of the read but this is not the place of that. These chapters are very important for a number of reasons. First they really show Jody in a new way. They show him losing control and going down kicking and screaming. Even to the death he is unable to accept a loss of control. He still blames Jody for everything, with a hardened liver Jody still blames and attempts to humiliate Janie.
ReplyDeleteJody started at seeming progressive for his time, but we realize that he still holds the traditional prejudices, and I think he fools both the reader and Janie. His wretchedness at the end is repulsive, but at the same time pitiable.
ReplyDelete-Benny
ReplyDeleteI was really proud of Janie for spilling her true feelings to Jody at the end of chapter 9. Though it was a sort of uncomfortable situation, since Jody was in fact on his deathbed, I think it was still necessary for Janie to express how she feels, in order to achieve a feeling of self-liberation. Her voice and her desires were suppressed in her relationship with Jody, and to not say anything to him, even when he was close to death, would have just proven her inferiority and her willingness to appease her husband. By speaking out, she not only told Jody the truth but she also allowed herself to have self-satisfaction that she had never felt before.
ReplyDelete